Now, I know you can read headlines so you know this was a study of proximal intercessory prayer, but the point is even if you assess the details of the study divorced from knowledge of what the intervention is, it should be obvious that this study tells us nothing. We don't do this for any medical claims. The point is to first establish that there is some interesting effect there, regardless of the cause, and only after passing that threshold do we get to consider a more in-depth investigation. Data sets with \(N=1\) are not convincing in any field. Stories of recalled past memories from past lives only occurs within religions that support reincarnation. Adding to that, he had some skepticism about some of the charlatans who have been exposed for making false claims about healings and the like. He doesn't seem to understand the ways that people can fool themselves. The first step -- which the theists have not achieved -- is to just demonstrate that there is a real effect to be investigated. Thu 03 February 2022 Sometimes running for their lives. Barbara Snyder earned a bachelor's degree in sociology from Ohio State University and a Juris Doctor degree from the University of Chicago. Jonathan McLatchie vs Jonathan Pearce, documentation for the Barbara Snyder case, https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=control&category_name=&submit=Search, this woman was healed of Parkinson's with "Energy Healing". I would add that most of these people are praying most of the time, so it's kind of like looking for astrological causes behind earthquakes -- since earthquakes happen all the time, you can always find one preceding or succeeding any other event you want. I've read some of the first volume. I think we could say your relationship with Medine and how you guys, the two of you made it together, counts as one of those major miracles in your life. Author and evangelist Lee Strobel was once an atheist who served as the legal affairs editor for the Chicago Tribune before embarking on a quest to try and disprove Christianity an effort that ironically led him to embrace faith. "One day, one of her friends called WMBI, which is the radio station in Chicago run by the Moody Bible Institute, and said, 'Pray for Barbara. To this day.. And so on. So we're talking about something like hundreds of millions of people. This shows a profound lack of imagination on the part of the investigators, and I think shows their hand. "And so that's kind of what prompted me to investigate this issue.". This effect has been seen a lot, but a good example is the Rendelsham Forest UFO sighting where there is a big difference between the original reports and the later reports or the Barney and Betty Hill case of alien abduction where one can track the contamination of the story to popular media depictions of aliens. That is the definition of supernatural. He became a Christian in 1981 shortly after he decided to investigate Jesus and the Christian faith after his wife became a Christian. What would happen if two people out in space a few meters apart, abandoned by their spacecraft, decided to wait until gravity pulled them together? What is being missed here is it shouldn't matter what the skeptic says -- the evidence should be strong enough to convince the skeptic. He is the F.M. Easily testable, and I'd be surprised if this is a real effect once you get past the selection bias and sociological effects, and have good controls including separating number of miracle reports from actual anomalous medical events. We originally met when we were, she was an exchange student and I was doing my PhD in New Testament at Duke. (Warner Brothers even invited me onto the movie set to watch some of the filming and to meet the engaging actress.) Keener quotes a study that showed that half of the physicians studied said that they had seen what they consider to be miracles. I wear glasses. Quoting myself here (from this post). If you enjoyed our conversation today, give us a rating on your podcast app. One And there were a number of other people who also, who were there at the occasion, who knew him before and after, who could testify to this. Scott Rae: -semi anti-supernatural vibes. He was 2200 in one eye and 2400 in the other and had already been through training for the blind. The Mayo Clinic had diagnosed Barbara with multiple sclerosis. A document going through these particular medical statements with citations can be found here. Plus these were not from people who burned child witches or anything like that. After a quick intro, the episode plays in full. ), This was an instantaneous healing of all of her symptoms and all of her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy, Strobel said. Psychics do this all the time as well. into our next chapter, said McRobbie, who is also the president of Indiana And the person came back after prayer and a number of other cases. I doubt Keener has tried to actually get this done beyond the anecdotal level. This is the pattern we see of something that is non-existent, and the healings follow this exact same pattern. That's biola.edu/thinkbiblically. This one is obviously ludicrous, but I think undermines the theists claims quite a lot. The way people like the stories highlights their way of thinking and provides a teachable moment about like why don't we trust claims just from the claims, even if it has a peer-reviewed journal article. So as you've cataloged these different stories and different accounts, what's been the sort of the breath of the geography that's been involved? But we also had the medical documentation. But she, but it happened. She, first of all she ended up having to flee from the capital where she was teaching French at the U.S. Embassy, sorry, she was teaching English at the U.S. Embassy for Francophone Congolese residents. Pharmaceutical companies don't complain about these steps, they just do the work. This is special pleading -- wanting to hold their claims to a lower standard than other claims. I mean I tried to get accounts from all sorts of different cultures. Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) - healed from multiple sclerosis The institution that is referenced for the work is Global Medical Research Institute (GMRI) and the documentary about miracles referenced is Send Proof. Share it with a friend. This kind of phrasing is trying to stop people from being skeptical of their claims (and only their claims). In all of human history there has never been one single credible and fully verified miracle cure. Case Western Reserves It is interesting the Elijah seems to understand that we need evidence to believe a claim, that we need to weigh alternative hypotheses, but he seems to have no idea what a controlled study is or why it is necessary. And also, a lot of my African friends say, "Look, life in Africa's a miracle. The 1974 measurement is 20/100 compared to legally blind at 20/200 (uncorrected) which is still quite poor and far from being "restored", but still a large improvement from her measured 7/200 mentioned earlier. But you've written a two volume set over, excess of a 1000 pages on the subject of miracles. A lot of accounts have been published from Asia. Stay up-to-date with current issues, Christian teachings, entertainment news, videos & more. diagnosis by the Mayo Clinic, her condition declined over the next 15 years. 2023 Blaze Media LLC. or perhaps it resolved in 2 years, and they never checked for a long time, only checking right after the prayer 16 years later. He died of stomach cancer at a, I think what was he? How is an epistemically responsible thing to do? It also includes the audio recording of Duane Miller, Contains an interview with Bruce Van Natta, the mechanic I referenced who lost most of his small intestines in an accident and was later healed. A doctor won't want to look at a regrown kidney because it will look like he did insurance fraud. But Barbara Snyder, she had been dying from a severe form of Multiple Sclerosis. Somebody we know, actually there were two people we know, who are witnesses of that one. You don't mix, say, corrected and uncorrected measurements in a timeline unless you provide both at every time point you have. He already was on disability for this. Well I shouldn't say everybody, but lots of people have love stories. The statements about being brain dead are all unsubstantiated -- there was oxygen both from the chest compressions and when he was hooked up to machinery. The response is, essentially, that I am demanding too much evidence. Kamil makes the interesting point that the testimonies of different religions only reflect what that particular religion has as a theological component. Today we can point to solid finances, Just to have the words "inference to the best explanation" that legitimizes the inference that you're making rather than actually being able to use inference to the best explanation. Here are two examples from my life where I was skeptical of an extraordinary claim, one where it turned out my perspective was correct and the other not. "[5], In 2011, Cleveland.com reported Barbara R. Snyder's total compensation for the year of 2009 was $778,874.[6]. Also we need to know what happens when there is no treatment as a control. I mean there was one person, it was so crazy. Then he was prayed for and was instantly healed, could eat, and have his tubes removed. So I asked Antoinette Malumbay, "How long was it that Terese wasn't breathing?" Craig Keener: Thanks so much for having me Scott. They were saying "This is all from Congo. I had a lot of connections with Africa, different parts of Africa. What surprised you? And Jesus answers him with words from Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61 saying, "The disabled will walk. We wouldn't conclude that these things actually happened as reported, especially given the gaps in the timelines. The university has retained Spencer Stuart to assist in this search. You've done tremendous work on it that is a huge benefit to the Kingdom, not only with your technical biblical scholarship, but with this incredible stuff you've done on miracles. I mean that would almost qualify as a resurrection. To be charitable to Elijah's point, perhaps he's meaning that if you pray for someone yourself in an impossible situation and there is improvement, you can tell the difference between the fake and real miracle personally. In Steven Novella's post at Proximal Intercessory Prayer, he comments (on a different case, but applicable here). But I'm grateful for the, the engagement that's come since then because there has been a lot of good engagement and people have taken it seriously and taken to heart some of the arguments in it. She heard a voice saying, "My child, rise up and walk." So that, I mean that would almost qual, I mean three hours. The one-on-one treatments, when they show an effect, are confounded by the more intense experience, the one-on-one attention, the group pressures, etc You are adding a lot of psychological elements which make it harder to establish causation. Only 15 percent according to the polling that I did believe that miracles cannot happen today," Strobel said. Feel free to reach out if you want more specifics on a given quote or study. What problems are you interested in? The primary studies here are Case Studies, which are some of the lowest and least informative types of studies in medicine (see https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/evidence-based-medicine/levels_of_evidence) with Meta-studies, Systematic reviews, and Randomized Controlled Studies being the most effective forms. Craig Keener: Well I tried to get accounts from all over the world. Barbaras impact on this university has been so broad and deep that we will not understand the full extent of her legacy for years and perhaps decades to come, Wyant said. We use cookies to better understand website visitors, for advertising, and to offer you a better experience. But I heard this one from somebody who worked with Craig Evans, followed up with Barbara Snyder and her doctors and passed this onto Lee Strobel, who followed up on this too. And when you dig in and you start interviewing some of the people and looking at some of the medical documentation, we're not talking about a little bit of evidence. I think, however, there is a selection bias here -- those people who have theological reasons to expect healings are more likely to broadcast what they consider to be healing events, while others for the same sorts of events will prefer more modest interpretations. God can heal us through exercise or just the things he's placed in our body. So we interviewed Antoinette Malumbay. Keener doesn't explore alternative hypotheses and how he'd distinguish between them. #religion It's just like a lack of imagination there's just like Christian fundamentalism and there's atheist naturalism and there's no other world views, apparently. It isn't irrational to demand a higher-than-average standard for extraordinary claims, no matter what. On GMRI's website there is the following request: "Were always looking for new testimonies. This miracle claim never came up in the episode. One of the remarkable stories recounted in Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Miracles" involves a hopelessly ill woman named Barbara Snyder, who had suffered for many years with multiple sclerosis. Synder ended up in hospice care with a no-resuscitation order; she was nearly blind, her hands and body were curled and she had a tube in her throat to help her breath as well as a tube in her stomach to ensure proper nourishment. They are claiming there is a causal effect, they are claiming that these things happen regularly enough to be observed, yet they want to hide behind the idea that it is somewhat random and not actually try to test it. public flagship institutions as UCLA, University of Michigan, and the Even if miracles could be the case, regardless of your worldview, how would you be able to demonstrate that God did it? Some were tested in persecution. After a year or two of investigation they finally concluded, and we have all of the medical documentation, that no, he had, the way they put it in their letter from the Social Security Administration, "You have received a remarkable return of your visual acuity, therefore, you are no longer qualified for disability." Barbara began her academic career as an assistant professor at Case Western Reserves School of Law, then joined the faculty of Moritz College of Law at The Ohio State University. Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens and a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. but there comes a point when enough is enough. It's not [inaudible] a short book. What happens if you don't have randomized-controlled studies in medicine? James: I'm not a fan of eliminating explanations because i think that that's almost impossible because you can always augment the hypothesis with further details, so the issue is going to be one of comparative plausibility and explanatory scope. The analogy breaks down here because of a difference of information (we have some context for prayer but none in the analogy) and it seems out of place. From my reading also, MS can also go into spontaneous remission -- usually temporary -- but we don't have any follow-ups, detailed timelines documented, etc We have stories. But in this case, he had to have the medical documentation be he'd been on disability. This one is much like the previous one, but there is no study -- just the stories. But in some places Like I had a student from India, a doctor of ministry student, who said almost everybody that he prays for in India gets healed. In particular, it includes an interview with Barbara Snyder, who was instantaneously healed from advanced multiple sclerosis, as also attested by her two physicians. At the beginning I didn't find all that. They dont want you to see this Big Tech does its best to limit what news you see. I don't think they have established a real effect yet, so it's premature to speak about causes. She did it. So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, Go find my parents [and] jumps out of bed.. This seems really strange, if we are to believe the magnitude of the healing -- she claims to have gone from nearly blind to nearly perfect instantaneously, yet doesn't get this checked out immediately? Craig Keener: Yes. A legal scholar, Snyder was the first woman to serve as the Case Western's president. and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky. What is that? These steps are in place to get at the truth, not to specifically put up barriers to rule out miracles. Which I agree with, at least technically. Also, the theists show a profound lack of imagination in coming up with studies that can test the involvement of an agent, while ruling out other effects. How has the book been received, both in Christian circles and then outside Christian circles? Exactly when this point is depends on considerations around prior probability. But it's a wonderful volume. Is he thinking (a strawman of) 100% of the time? Has it been confirmed? She mentions a head injury from her accident not a spinal cord injury and never mentions that she was irreversibly paralyzed below the waist. He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. Although MS can come in milder forms, Barbara's condition deteriorated quickly. I said "I'm doing well" and he said "Well listen this may sound odd to you, but could you use a pool table?". Barbara Cummiskey Snyder is on Facebook. James: Keener says simultaneously that there are hundreds of millions of cases but also that none of this can be replicated. Nathan: it's like he understands broadly what he should be doing but then that stands in place of him actually doing it it's like as if just finally having a bit of a grasp of how we should reason about the these things.suppose we agree with you now well why is that the best explanation? Synder's miraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turnaround. Never miss a big news story again. She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations," Strobel explained. Intercessory prayer commences and one day he awakes to find his or her arm back on their body, intact. This pretty much summarizes the problems with this study. Also, this condition is known to come and go in some patients. in Old Testament from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a B.A.S. It's part of the lowering of the standards of evidence. Some initial thoughts Time stamp 4:47 James is right that the evidence on a lot of these cases is really really bad. In my discussion with Jonathan McLatchie on the Still Unbelievable podcast, I said that there hasnt been a verified miracle claim even since Humes essay on miracles. The AAUs members include such This is totally expected on naturalism, but not expected under theism. Here's my comment. One can have compelling evidence even when a case could be rendered stronger with even more evidence. Certainly, Jesus gave a bright future to Barbara Snyder in 1981. AfghanistanWhere Faith Is a Matter of Life and Death. And that was, that was really hard. At the end of the project, Strobel said he was shocked to learn that miracles are not only common, but also well-documented. Yes, I'll look for these mundane explanations first before jumping to agency, because those are the most common explanations of extraordinary claims. I am delighted that the board selected Barbara to lead AAU The Surfaris were a California garage band with an average age of 15 who had been successful enough playing at sock hops and house parties that they were able to acquire a manager. We had to cut 45% of it to make it as short as it was, but then again, I'm not known for writing short books. The same thing occurs with UFO claims, homeopathy studies, and psychic abilities. Craig Keener: Thanks. And then if so, then how do you account for that? These theists are in fact arguing for a lower level of evidence than we demand of the universities and pharmaceutical companies for their claims. Keener: what is specific about that data that suggests it isn't just a fluke you know one of those one in a million things that just happens sometimes yeah anomalies occur so it's important to look for an accumulation of anomalies so you don't just have what could be a coincidence. She was healed just suddenly. She is the former president of Case Western Reserve University. Then a decade or so later, a replication study by Dr. William S. Harris and colleagues was published in the Archives of Internal Medicine. Were the results similar? This was a gold standard study of the effects of intercessory prayer on almost a thousand consecutively admitted coronary patients. As James says, "God really needs to up his game.". It's been shown that there is a high survival rate for patients with their heart rhythm responds to shocks. But after a while it just becomes so overwhelming, but I said, "You know, I'm too skeptical myself. Her blindness, too, had been instantaneously healed. 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